Hikaru no Go: Sai, the undiscovered country

[myaru]

blind_go and the ensuing wank at the anonmeme put me in the mind frame to talk about depictions of Sai in fan fiction again. I've ranted about it before, but the entries were locked down, so it's time to produce a sanitized, public version. No research from me, because people should be able to get off their asses and do their own damned Google searches.

Now that I've set the tone...

Someone commented that everything had been done in HnG fiction, which is why the fandom doesn't produce that much fic. I strongly disagree with that claim. There's plenty the HikaGo fandom can work with, and I think people would see that if they bothered to learn anything about Japan besides what they serve at their ramen shops - which, by the way, some people could still stand to research.

Sai is the focus of this entry because his story arc spans A THOUSAND YEARS. That's TEN CENTURIES, just in case you don't realize how much time that is to work with in the framework of Japanese history. He hid (lived? existed?) in Torajiro's go board for a hundred or two, but the rest? What did Sai do with the eight hundred years before that?

Big question there. Lots of room to work with.

Japanese mythology (and even history) provides both living people who are capable of seeing ghosts - priests, monks, onmyouji, immortals, extraordinary people who are none of the above but just have above-average perception - and also a host of supernatural creatures, gods, and spirits. These aren't just things writers make up for anime; they've existed in the Japanese consciousness for hundreds of years. There are plenty of people who could potentially interact with Sai besides Hikaru, both in history and the modern era. Surely you've all seen commercials for psychics, seen accounts of seances, and other such things?

In the Heian era, for example, there was a belief that the spirits of the dead could wreak havoc on their enemies in revenge for something that happened in life. I used Sugawara no Michizane as an example in an earlier locked entry - he was banished from the capitol and died in exile, but his honor was officially restored by the emperor because of a series of disasters that struck the capitol and were blamed on his angry spirit.

That could be a Sai story right there.

And there's the history itself. Sai wandered for a thousand years. That's a long bloody time, and in that time the culture he grew up in was was plunged into war (see the Genpei War, which has its own body of legends) and reborn as a warrior era with Japan's very first shogunate (see the Kamakura Shogunate). This government reformed itself every two or three centuries, coming under the control of different families and so forth, so we have the Ashikaga Shogunate, the Warring States period, and the Tokugawa Shogunate, which is probably what most people think of when they see the term 'samurai.'

Go was present throughout this turbulent history. There's the development of Zen Buddhism to consider. How about the emergence of art forms like No, Kabuki, tea, et cetera? Besides historical possibilities, there are AU possibilities. Also, there are probably shades of Akira and his family, for instance, that aren't touched on that often in fic - family dynamic, family tradition, et cetera. I don't actually know, as I haven't seriously read HnG fic in a little while.

And please: Sai had a life. Probably a very interesting life. He looks like he was in his twenties or so, by the artwork. By then he would have been married, and he had clearly risen to a prestigious position in court, so what is there NOT to talk about? Think of the political potential, the affairs he could have--

--except, people seem to like the idea of Sai as a blushing virgin. Well, if you ever change your minds, I'm pretty sure that by that age, he'd have known quite a bit about romancing women and men. He must have had at least one wife, and even if you don't buy into the idea of Heian men as complete skanks across the board (I do), it's unlikely he was innocent regarding sex, the exploits of other people, or whatever.

Also, Torajiro? Anybody? They were together for twenty years - more. The Wikipedia entry on Shuusaku provides plenty of fodder for fic. Their relationship has plenty of room for writing, too.

I've wondered for years what has stopped people from writing this stuff when it seems everybody loves Sai - or at the very least, there are always people who want to see more of him. You don't need to write a resurrection fic to do that. There's plenty of Sai to go around.


[ETA: link to conversation found and added.]

Comments

[imanewme.livejournal.com]

Okay, it's 2 a.m. so please forgive if this doesn't make sense but here it goes: I've never heard of hikaru_no_go, so I Wiki'd it and saw that it had been around for a while, so I decided to read the first scanned chapter at onemanga. Holy crap. I think I might be hooked. GA! (smiling big) I think I know what I'm going to be doing this weekend... (scampers off to read more.) Thanks, Myaru. You have no idea....

[myaru.livejournal.com]

Hey, awesome, another convert! Hikaru no Go is an amazing series. It's absolutely worth getting sucked into, I promise.

First Saiunkoku, now HnG. What else can I get you interested in? XD

[worldserpent.livejournal.com]

I think you might be talking about the comment in this thread on my journal?

http://worldserpent.livejournal.com/331929.html?thread=4172697&style=mine#t4172697 (the second comment by bobthetrout)

[myaru.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's it. Thank you! No wonder I didn't find it. -_-; I was reading so many threads at the time I can't keep them straight.

[kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com]

Just wandered in by friendsfriends, but I think you answered your own question here. I don't think most people want to write a story that involves a lot of research.

While an American (as most of the fans probably are) might be able to fake a historical AU set in the US or England just from what they learned in school and read in novels, unless they majored in Japanese they probably don't have the first idea about Japanese history. Hell, I did major in Japanese and over the years I've probably forgotten more history than I remember.

Most people are reluctant to research even the most basic things, much less do the sort of research required for a (good) historical fic. That's too bad, because as you've outlined here, there are some really interesting possibilities.

(I also think a lot of fans are in it for the Hikaru/Akira, so no matter how much they may like Sai, the prospect of a whole fic about him and not their OTP is not compelling enough to write. /cynical)

[worldserpent.livejournal.com]

I was talking to KT about this, and she said that she had actually seen fic about Sai. However, I am going to agree with kyuuketsukirui and turn it around and say that the prospect of such extensive research does not thrill quite a few. We Americans and other non-Japanese just don't have that knowledge of Heian history, and even if we did have the desire, it is difficult to obtain sources because most of us don't speak Japanese.

Am curious, what are the vast inaccuracies being perpetuated about ramen shops? It seems hard for me to imagine screwing it up, but on the other hand, my home state has ramen shops anyway.

[troisroyaumes]

Hello, I was reading some of your comments in worldserpent's journal and decided to wander by. I hope you don't mind my commenting; I found this post to be really interesting! Is there any chance of you linking to it on the main comm? Actually, I think fandom is moving in that direction, as writers, well, keep looking for new ideas (e.g. first fifthmus round had two Torajirou fics and I don't doubt there will be more). Also, I think some writers are more prone to writing historical fics than others (ladyseishou for example) because (as other people have said) it does require a lot more research and probably some pre-existing background knowledge. But I agree, I would like to see more historical fics with Sai (from other periods of history than just Heian). One of the theme sets for the previous blind_go rounds featured five periods of Japanese history, and I had hoped that someone would take the bait...^_^;;

[myaru.livejournal.com]

The ramen shop thing was absolutely an elitist stab at nobody in particular. :P Elitist because I'm expecting a certain level of detail that I suppose you can't expect from fan fiction, and nobody in particular because I think the writers in general just say something like "Hikaru ate some ramen and--" etc. I get the feeling when people say 'ramen,' they're thinking of Top Ramen and stuff like that. There's nothing actually wrong with it.

The thing is, you can get an overview of Heian history from Wikipedia and other sites, and if you want to write about Sai in particular, they have some entries on the Fujiwara family that provide enough information to inspire fic. I'm not asking people to be experts. I happen to have some background in Japanese history, but I'm not an expert either - I have a better idea of what to look for (search terms, books, authors, blah blah), but that doesn't mean I have an easy time finding good sources. But a Google search ('Heian era costume') will help you find some useful reference and vocab (http://www.clotheslinejournal.com/heian.html) at least.

[myaru.livejournal.com]

It's kind of amazing that an interest in manga, especially one that invokes history sometimes like Hikaru no Go, would produce absolutely no interest in Japanese culture. In fact, it's been my experience that anime fans have lots of interest in the culture - they just don't know anything about it. But they're willing to listen.

I linked to Wikipedia up there because getting information is as easy as following a few links. I don't expect people to become historians. That would probably work against the fic in a lot of ways, because using history and infodumping correctly in a story is hard, and fan authors already have a hard time with details in their work - they put too little, or way too much, and the result ends up being boring, or just unsatisfying.

But-- what I'm not understanding, I guess, is how anybody could not want to spend half an hour reading some general history if it means improving their fic. Especially after the wank that exploded over the concrit opt-out.

Fan fiction about Akira would be a lot more interesting to me if it took some of his family tradition into account, but that's actually more to ask for than an hour of Heian research.

You're probably right about the OTP though. Meh.

[myaru.livejournal.com]

Comments are always welcome. I don't mind at all.

As for the comm, I hadn't really thought about it. If you think others would find it interesting, maybe I can? ontogenesis suggested making the post in the first place, but it probably needs to be pimped out to get any attention.

There were a few fics in this blind_go round that attempted history, and in spite of some inaccuracies they were really enjoyable. Striking off the usual path is risky, but I think it's worth some time researching. People are getting so worked up about constructive criticism and whether or not people in the fandom can make their work better, but they're overlooking what I consider to be an incredibly important element: Japan. Culture, history. You don't have to be a historian to write a fic that focuses on a character's traditional family values, or a fic about Sai and Torajiro, or a fic set in the "official" Heian Gensou AU, which doesn't even try to be historically accurate. If people really want to improve their fiction, or see others improve it, they need to start reading.

All of my fics have some kind of cultural or historical thing in them, because that's what interests me. Since I have some background in Japanese history, culture, and language, it's going to be easier for me than other people, I admit. But that doesn't mean that it's impossible or even a laborious effort.

Maybe I should make a list of links and sources.

I would love a blind_go round that focused on history.

[kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com]

A lot of people think spellcheck is too much work to put into a fic. :p I really don't think the laziness of the majority of people can be underestimated.

I don't read a lot in animanga fandoms for a variety of reasons, but I see similar laziness in terms of not wanting to do any research outside one's own culture in Harry Potter fandom. A lot of people are so resistant to having someone check their stories for Americanisms or doing any research on how the UK differs from the US...

[troisroyaumes]

I think other people will find it interesting, particularly Sai fans. ^_^ I hope you don't mind my linking to it without asking permission.

I don't know enough about Japanese history or culture to pick up on inaccuracies, but I generally agree that it would be interesting to see more fanfic that focuses on those elements, especially since go carries so many cultural associations.

I'd love to see the list of links and sources if you ever find the time to compile it!

[worldserpent.livejournal.com]

Well, people definitely do eat Top Ramen in Japan, though. Of course, you can also get a slightly better grade of pre-prepared ramen too.

True, but if you are worried about accuracy, it can be hard to know if the sources you find on the internets are worthy, and also, wikipedia articles might not provide enough context for someone truly unfamiliar with the period. I got a lot of my knowledge of the Heian period, meager though it be, from reading stuff like Tale of Genji and historical novels like a Tale of False Fortunes, and that gave me context to go out and understand more.

[physis7.livejournal.com]

I think it's hard to believe that there can't be anything new under the sun. There's always something new to write about. I mean, there are characters that feel abandoned. The insei, the new rivalry between Oka and that other guy from the specials, Kuwabara's experiences as a new pro... Perhaps not all of them could become THE fanfic or turn someone into a BNF, but all of them could be interesting. Even at FF.net some try new things (now, the success rate...).

[myaru.livejournal.com]

I love the fresh stuff in Japanese grocery stores, although I'm usually too lazy to use it on time.

It's not accuracy, so much as any effort at all. I mean, of course I'd like to see a historically accurate fic on Sai, and I'll do my best to write one after the semester is over, but any attempt at all would be nice. In fact, there was a fic for Blind Go that focused on Sai when he was alive, and it was a pleasure to read in spite of things that I thought were kind of silly. They were inaccurate, but they didn't destroy the story.

See, I actually think that asking people to read the Tale of Genji is asking for a lot. That's a long freaking book. Even reading selections can take a lot of time, and translations of old literature can just be hard to read, period, if you don't do it somewhat frequently. If you want to up the ante then yes, for the love of god people, read the Tale of Genji. But I doubt it'll happen. Hence Google searches.

[myaru.livejournal.com]

I... I know. Ugh. Spellcheck is so easy, too. Word and Wordperfect do it automatically. Even Firefox does spell-checking for me now.

Did they do any localization for the HP books, out of curiosity? I do remember seeing things that just aren't common in the US, but for the most part the difference wasn't that noticeable. Perhaps their reluctance has something to do with that? Although meta on that topic seems to have been going around for a while (I know I saw it several years ago when I first started reading HP fic), so it's doubtful the authors aren't aware.

That's why I didn't get into HP fic myself - because I didn't feel like I had a grasp on the Britishness, for lack of a better term. I'd feel obligated to make an effort, personally.

[myaru.livejournal.com]

If it's public, it's linkable!

Yeah, you know... the inaccuracies stand out to me, but they don't necessarily bother me. When I see someone attempt a historical fic at all I'm happy, especially if they do a good job in spite of a lack of research. In the end, it's the story and characters that are more important, and accuracy is only something you have to worry about if you're publishing under the 'historic' label. Or, I guess, if your fandom is anal about that kind of thing and you happen to care what they think.

It's really just the blushing virgin!Sai thing that bothers me. Really, really bothers me. I think it compromises his character. In fact, any kind of innocent!Sai is a travesty in my opinion, and I feel very strongly about it.

[myaru.livejournal.com]

I love your icon. XD

Strangely, I've always thought minor characters in HnG get more attention than they do in other fandoms, with the exception of games like Suikoden and Fire Emblem, which just throw a crap-ton of characters at you with varying stages of development. But I agree, there's plenty to do with them. It isn't just Sai that could stand more attention, although he could stand more inventive attention, I think. The last time I read HnG fic regularly, there were two types of Sai fic: resurrection and AU.

I think I agree with the anon comment that Hikaru no Go fandom is too small and quiet to have real BNFs, but this is coming from someone outside, looking in.

[worldserpent.livejournal.com]

Huh, but what is the point of writing historically if it's not going to be accurate, and with no attempts to be either factual, or what is probably also just as important, get some sense of the atmosphere or mentality? Maybe for fanfic, all they need to do is be in character as in how it's portrayed in the series, but if it's original fiction more problems occur.

I didn't mean that people should read the Tale of Genji, I'm just saying that integrating the research and getting a holistic picture to imagine something is harder if you just rely on the factual, dryer stuff you find on the web.

[worldserpent.livejournal.com]

There was localization in the US version of HP. IIRC this is standard operating procedure for reissuing British children's books in the US.

[myaru.livejournal.com]

Getting them to attempt history is the first step, right? Accuracy matters, yes, but 100% accuracy is not as important to me as the attempt to do it right - in fan fiction. In original fiction, if you're going to market your book as historical fiction, then you need to get off your ass and do your research. But if you ask for everything right away, are people going to be willing to give it to you?

In a perfect world, doing some research would inspire more of it. Maybe reading Genji would be more fun. Basing fic on life as it's depicted in Genji actually wouldn't be that bad, though it might be... I don't know, too idealistic, or skewed.

[worldserpent.livejournal.com]

Eh... That is true, but I guess it is a matter of the individual's comfort level. My point is more that the information available is often fragmentary, and often while historically important for someone taking Japanese history 101, there may be situations where it the information the writer is seeking is simply not available online in English.

I'm lazy, so I find reading a novel more ez than reading primary sources. Also, one could make an argument that the Japanese pop cultural depiction of the Heian period is inauthentic anyway, so that throws in a whole bunch of other issues.

[priestess-grrrl.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm afraid you may be trying to get dogs to meow if you seriously expect the average drooling fangirl to do serious research. I do understand your frustration with it, however. I feel the same way about dubbers. I understand that there are some people who have learning disabilities that preclude them from reading subs and things like that. But for everyone else, I'm just like... how could you be so into anime and yet not at all interested in the intricacies of the Japanese language? Why would you want to watch something that is clearly inferior on purpose? I just don't GET it.

But that's how it is. People aren't into it for the same reasons we [intellectuals] are. They're into it for the smex or for the haha funny blushing virgin stuff or just because it's fun and cool. Hikaru no Go was made for young kids, after all. It's going to have that appeal. I've actually been pleasantly surprised at the depth of the stuff we do have.

We have the same problem in the Loveless fandom. While I see Kouga Yun's work as this extremely intricate and emotionally complicated story that deserves some deep philosophical discussion, never mind decent fic, most of the fandom is full of people making cutesy icons of sociopathic characters. It's disappointing and upsetting and I wish it were different - and, it's what it is. To quote from an early fandom of mine, Steven Tyler once said, "It's what it is, and what it ain't; it's what kinda house, and what kinda paint."

So rather than fight what is, what I did was to create my own Loveless comm and hand picked all the people I invited to it. Now we have a nice little corner of the fandom that is happily starting to meet my needs in that department. Maybe you could do the same? Start a Hikago historical fic comm? Provide resources for people in the userinfo on where they can go to get information on the Heian era, etc? Encourage serious authors to join? That's what I would recommend. Otherwise, you're just going to be endlessly frustrated with hoi polloi, if you know what I mean.

[dijeron.livejournal.com]

I think a problem with your goal is that there's just not enough information available in English (or even French--although Francine Herail's work would be useful for knowing more about the Heian Court circa 1000) for people to use. Even a lot of the lower-level books in Japanese are misleading at times (for example, the general-audience market for books on onmyōji is mixed: some major scholars have written paperbacks, but some are really, really dubious pieces of work, and even sometimes a major scholar gets sloppy and makes a few strange statements).

(World of the Shining Prince is not a bad book, but it's based on literature--Classical Japanese--as opposed to government documents or diaries in kambun. It is also very dated--in other words, it's one of the best we have, but it seriously needs replacement.)

Even Hikaru no Go as a text is historically problematic. Take the issue of Sai--what position was he in? It's very unlikely that he was high-rank, or a scion of a major Fujiwara lineage. Yet, from his description, he had to have had regular access to the tennō (how else could one be a tutor?). That would presumably put him among the kurōdo (6th and 5th rank), but people rotated out of the kurōdo every few years, at least around the year 1000--he couldn't have stayed there, playing go forever anyway. Any higher than the kurōdo and his job would have either not given him access (they were a special case), or he would have been insulated from being disbarred. This is a time when people were censored for wearing the wrong type of clothing to events (there's an example of this in the Shōyūki diary for the early 11th century)--yet, even then, they were rarely stripped of position, as far as the historical record shows. (I only know of one case offhand, but that involved bloodshed among some of the guards.)

There's just not all that much good information out there on the Heian Period--which lasted about 400 years, so it covers a lot of area--that's not in Japanese. I do not mean to say that fanfics based on what you'd like to see would be a bad project; I just highly doubt I would be able to judge them "accurate." And learning to read academic Japanese to research toilet use in the capital (actually, there's some interesting questions there!) is probably more than most fans should be asked to do. Or would find remotely enjoyable.

[harumi.livejournal.com]

*wandered in here from hikago*

Oh god a person who understands Japanese history.

I'm one of those with a stickler for Japanese culture and history (as well as canon... Akira does NOT sleep on a bed ffs), but I have always hesitated to write about Sai. Not simply because of the daunting research, but because materials are so hard to find in English.

I've been working on a onmyoji!Hikago AU for quite some time and half the problem was research. Most of the links are shallow, and the materials that I want are very difficult to find. Part of the problem is not merely where but how. And that's on legends and magic, which can be bent and remade because it's not really based in fact. A writer's interpretation is forgivable under such circumstances.

History is another ball game altogether. I actually majored in Japanese history, but in the Tokugawa to modern era. Even in that I feel like my knowledge of the events are weak. I took a class on Japanese history from Heian on, but as you've pointed out, there's so much stuff. And many of the things need to be explained, even with research. Just the rankings, the names, and the roles are enough to make me feel dizzy. I honestly wished that there was a chart somewhere I could use.

At one point I tried looking for images of children's lifestyles in court during the Heian era on google and came up with little to none after spending hours on the computer. Even an image would have helped, but I couldn't find anything. And that shocked me. Until I did that I had always thought anything could be found on google.

Honestly, I'd really appreciate a knowledge post, or at least a link post, not simply because I'm interested, but because I do want to write it without making silly, stupid mistakes or inaccuracies. As you've pointed out, there's so much material, but it's also oh-so-intimidating.