Hikaru no Go: Sai, the undiscovered country

[myaru]

blind_go and the ensuing wank at the anonmeme put me in the mind frame to talk about depictions of Sai in fan fiction again. I've ranted about it before, but the entries were locked down, so it's time to produce a sanitized, public version. No research from me, because people should be able to get off their asses and do their own damned Google searches.

Now that I've set the tone...

Someone commented that everything had been done in HnG fiction, which is why the fandom doesn't produce that much fic. I strongly disagree with that claim. There's plenty the HikaGo fandom can work with, and I think people would see that if they bothered to learn anything about Japan besides what they serve at their ramen shops - which, by the way, some people could still stand to research.

Sai is the focus of this entry because his story arc spans A THOUSAND YEARS. That's TEN CENTURIES, just in case you don't realize how much time that is to work with in the framework of Japanese history. He hid (lived? existed?) in Torajiro's go board for a hundred or two, but the rest? What did Sai do with the eight hundred years before that?

Big question there. Lots of room to work with.

Japanese mythology (and even history) provides both living people who are capable of seeing ghosts - priests, monks, onmyouji, immortals, extraordinary people who are none of the above but just have above-average perception - and also a host of supernatural creatures, gods, and spirits. These aren't just things writers make up for anime; they've existed in the Japanese consciousness for hundreds of years. There are plenty of people who could potentially interact with Sai besides Hikaru, both in history and the modern era. Surely you've all seen commercials for psychics, seen accounts of seances, and other such things?

In the Heian era, for example, there was a belief that the spirits of the dead could wreak havoc on their enemies in revenge for something that happened in life. I used Sugawara no Michizane as an example in an earlier locked entry - he was banished from the capitol and died in exile, but his honor was officially restored by the emperor because of a series of disasters that struck the capitol and were blamed on his angry spirit.

That could be a Sai story right there.

And there's the history itself. Sai wandered for a thousand years. That's a long bloody time, and in that time the culture he grew up in was was plunged into war (see the Genpei War, which has its own body of legends) and reborn as a warrior era with Japan's very first shogunate (see the Kamakura Shogunate). This government reformed itself every two or three centuries, coming under the control of different families and so forth, so we have the Ashikaga Shogunate, the Warring States period, and the Tokugawa Shogunate, which is probably what most people think of when they see the term 'samurai.'

Go was present throughout this turbulent history. There's the development of Zen Buddhism to consider. How about the emergence of art forms like No, Kabuki, tea, et cetera? Besides historical possibilities, there are AU possibilities. Also, there are probably shades of Akira and his family, for instance, that aren't touched on that often in fic - family dynamic, family tradition, et cetera. I don't actually know, as I haven't seriously read HnG fic in a little while.

And please: Sai had a life. Probably a very interesting life. He looks like he was in his twenties or so, by the artwork. By then he would have been married, and he had clearly risen to a prestigious position in court, so what is there NOT to talk about? Think of the political potential, the affairs he could have--

--except, people seem to like the idea of Sai as a blushing virgin. Well, if you ever change your minds, I'm pretty sure that by that age, he'd have known quite a bit about romancing women and men. He must have had at least one wife, and even if you don't buy into the idea of Heian men as complete skanks across the board (I do), it's unlikely he was innocent regarding sex, the exploits of other people, or whatever.

Also, Torajiro? Anybody? They were together for twenty years - more. The Wikipedia entry on Shuusaku provides plenty of fodder for fic. Their relationship has plenty of room for writing, too.

I've wondered for years what has stopped people from writing this stuff when it seems everybody loves Sai - or at the very least, there are always people who want to see more of him. You don't need to write a resurrection fic to do that. There's plenty of Sai to go around.


[ETA: link to conversation found and added.]

Comments

[imanewme.livejournal.com]

Okay, it's 2 a.m. so please forgive if this doesn't make sense but here it goes: I've never heard of hikaru_no_go, so I Wiki'd it and saw that it had been around for a while, so I decided to read the first scanned chapter at onemanga. Holy crap. I think I might be hooked. GA! (smiling big) I think I know what I'm going to be doing this weekend... (scampers off to read more.) Thanks, Myaru. You have no idea....

[myaru.livejournal.com]

Hey, awesome, another convert! Hikaru no Go is an amazing series. It's absolutely worth getting sucked into, I promise.

First Saiunkoku, now HnG. What else can I get you interested in? XD

[imanewme.livejournal.com]

Oh man! I just read a bunch of these comments here and I don't know if I'm smart enough to be a fan! XD (Deep breath) That being said, I'm going to comment anyway.

RE research: I've done more research for Saiunkoku than I did for some of my classes in college, but the research wasn't focused on culture or history. It was focused mostly on getting what cannon presents straight. Let's face it, the structure of Saiunkoku's government is a project on it's own, as well as the family trees for the main characters.

That's not to say that I've never researched outside of cannon for a fic I was tinkering with. It was fun reading about the various stages of Chinese New Year and what folks did/do on these days. I thoroughly enjoyed poking around the internet to get a grasp about what the dragon and the phoenix mean in Chinese art for the tapestry one-shot. On the other hand, when I went to the internet to get an idea of what elements were traditional in a Chinese funeral, I got decidedly lost. All I can say with certainty was that people got buried, and that relatives left pictures of gifts at the grave.

So basically what I'm saying here is that glaring historical errors in a fic isn't necessarily proof that the author doesn't care or hasn't tried. Go read my stuff. I'm sure it's chock full of "offensive ignorance." That isn't going to stop me from writing, though. The only way to grow is to do, after all.

I'm up to chapter 51 for Hikaru no Go, btw. :P

[worldserpent.livejournal.com]

I think you might be talking about the comment in this thread on my journal?

http://worldserpent.livejournal.com/331929.html?thread=4172697&style=mine#t4172697 (the second comment by bobthetrout)

[myaru.livejournal.com]

Yes, that's it. Thank you! No wonder I didn't find it. -_-; I was reading so many threads at the time I can't keep them straight.

[worldserpent.livejournal.com]

I was talking to KT about this, and she said that she had actually seen fic about Sai. However, I am going to agree with kyuuketsukirui and turn it around and say that the prospect of such extensive research does not thrill quite a few. We Americans and other non-Japanese just don't have that knowledge of Heian history, and even if we did have the desire, it is difficult to obtain sources because most of us don't speak Japanese.

Am curious, what are the vast inaccuracies being perpetuated about ramen shops? It seems hard for me to imagine screwing it up, but on the other hand, my home state has ramen shops anyway.

[kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com]

Just wandered in by friendsfriends, but I think you answered your own question here. I don't think most people want to write a story that involves a lot of research.

While an American (as most of the fans probably are) might be able to fake a historical AU set in the US or England just from what they learned in school and read in novels, unless they majored in Japanese they probably don't have the first idea about Japanese history. Hell, I did major in Japanese and over the years I've probably forgotten more history than I remember.

Most people are reluctant to research even the most basic things, much less do the sort of research required for a (good) historical fic. That's too bad, because as you've outlined here, there are some really interesting possibilities.

(I also think a lot of fans are in it for the Hikaru/Akira, so no matter how much they may like Sai, the prospect of a whole fic about him and not their OTP is not compelling enough to write. /cynical)

[myaru.livejournal.com]

It's kind of amazing that an interest in manga, especially one that invokes history sometimes like Hikaru no Go, would produce absolutely no interest in Japanese culture. In fact, it's been my experience that anime fans have lots of interest in the culture - they just don't know anything about it. But they're willing to listen.

I linked to Wikipedia up there because getting information is as easy as following a few links. I don't expect people to become historians. That would probably work against the fic in a lot of ways, because using history and infodumping correctly in a story is hard, and fan authors already have a hard time with details in their work - they put too little, or way too much, and the result ends up being boring, or just unsatisfying.

But-- what I'm not understanding, I guess, is how anybody could not want to spend half an hour reading some general history if it means improving their fic. Especially after the wank that exploded over the concrit opt-out.

Fan fiction about Akira would be a lot more interesting to me if it took some of his family tradition into account, but that's actually more to ask for than an hour of Heian research.

You're probably right about the OTP though. Meh.

[kyuuketsukirui.livejournal.com]

A lot of people think spellcheck is too much work to put into a fic. :p I really don't think the laziness of the majority of people can be underestimated.

I don't read a lot in animanga fandoms for a variety of reasons, but I see similar laziness in terms of not wanting to do any research outside one's own culture in Harry Potter fandom. A lot of people are so resistant to having someone check their stories for Americanisms or doing any research on how the UK differs from the US...

[troisroyaumes]

Hello, I was reading some of your comments in worldserpent's journal and decided to wander by. I hope you don't mind my commenting; I found this post to be really interesting! Is there any chance of you linking to it on the main comm? Actually, I think fandom is moving in that direction, as writers, well, keep looking for new ideas (e.g. first fifthmus round had two Torajirou fics and I don't doubt there will be more). Also, I think some writers are more prone to writing historical fics than others (ladyseishou for example) because (as other people have said) it does require a lot more research and probably some pre-existing background knowledge. But I agree, I would like to see more historical fics with Sai (from other periods of history than just Heian). One of the theme sets for the previous blind_go rounds featured five periods of Japanese history, and I had hoped that someone would take the bait...^_^;;

[myaru.livejournal.com]

Comments are always welcome. I don't mind at all.

As for the comm, I hadn't really thought about it. If you think others would find it interesting, maybe I can? ontogenesis suggested making the post in the first place, but it probably needs to be pimped out to get any attention.

There were a few fics in this blind_go round that attempted history, and in spite of some inaccuracies they were really enjoyable. Striking off the usual path is risky, but I think it's worth some time researching. People are getting so worked up about constructive criticism and whether or not people in the fandom can make their work better, but they're overlooking what I consider to be an incredibly important element: Japan. Culture, history. You don't have to be a historian to write a fic that focuses on a character's traditional family values, or a fic about Sai and Torajiro, or a fic set in the "official" Heian Gensou AU, which doesn't even try to be historically accurate. If people really want to improve their fiction, or see others improve it, they need to start reading.

All of my fics have some kind of cultural or historical thing in them, because that's what interests me. Since I have some background in Japanese history, culture, and language, it's going to be easier for me than other people, I admit. But that doesn't mean that it's impossible or even a laborious effort.

Maybe I should make a list of links and sources.

I would love a blind_go round that focused on history.

[physis7.livejournal.com]

I think it's hard to believe that there can't be anything new under the sun. There's always something new to write about. I mean, there are characters that feel abandoned. The insei, the new rivalry between Oka and that other guy from the specials, Kuwabara's experiences as a new pro... Perhaps not all of them could become THE fanfic or turn someone into a BNF, but all of them could be interesting. Even at FF.net some try new things (now, the success rate...).

[myaru.livejournal.com]

I love your icon. XD

Strangely, I've always thought minor characters in HnG get more attention than they do in other fandoms, with the exception of games like Suikoden and Fire Emblem, which just throw a crap-ton of characters at you with varying stages of development. But I agree, there's plenty to do with them. It isn't just Sai that could stand more attention, although he could stand more inventive attention, I think. The last time I read HnG fic regularly, there were two types of Sai fic: resurrection and AU.

I think I agree with the anon comment that Hikaru no Go fandom is too small and quiet to have real BNFs, but this is coming from someone outside, looking in.

[priestess-grrrl.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm afraid you may be trying to get dogs to meow if you seriously expect the average drooling fangirl to do serious research. I do understand your frustration with it, however. I feel the same way about dubbers. I understand that there are some people who have learning disabilities that preclude them from reading subs and things like that. But for everyone else, I'm just like... how could you be so into anime and yet not at all interested in the intricacies of the Japanese language? Why would you want to watch something that is clearly inferior on purpose? I just don't GET it.

But that's how it is. People aren't into it for the same reasons we [intellectuals] are. They're into it for the smex or for the haha funny blushing virgin stuff or just because it's fun and cool. Hikaru no Go was made for young kids, after all. It's going to have that appeal. I've actually been pleasantly surprised at the depth of the stuff we do have.

We have the same problem in the Loveless fandom. While I see Kouga Yun's work as this extremely intricate and emotionally complicated story that deserves some deep philosophical discussion, never mind decent fic, most of the fandom is full of people making cutesy icons of sociopathic characters. It's disappointing and upsetting and I wish it were different - and, it's what it is. To quote from an early fandom of mine, Steven Tyler once said, "It's what it is, and what it ain't; it's what kinda house, and what kinda paint."

So rather than fight what is, what I did was to create my own Loveless comm and hand picked all the people I invited to it. Now we have a nice little corner of the fandom that is happily starting to meet my needs in that department. Maybe you could do the same? Start a Hikago historical fic comm? Provide resources for people in the userinfo on where they can go to get information on the Heian era, etc? Encourage serious authors to join? That's what I would recommend. Otherwise, you're just going to be endlessly frustrated with hoi polloi, if you know what I mean.

[myaru.livejournal.com]

This anonmeme thing has been interesting, because I never pegged HnG fandom to have an older demographic, and yet the fans seem to think there is. By the quality of work I used to find on FF.Net, I would have guessed 14-18, tops - not to say people in that age group can't write well, as I know several who can, but... if we're talking about drooling, illiterate fangirls, that's where I'd lump them.

Maybe that does count as 'older' in manga fandom, come to think of it. It's being marketed toward that audience, after all. Hikaru no Go is a well-constructed story and therefore accessible to a wide range of readers, but it doesn't tackle any extremely serious or adult issues that I can think of. Hm.

Loveless. I'm still not sure how I feel about that series, but I've only read volume one. Should I read more?

Resources I can do, maybe. As for a comm... I'm not really involved much in the fandom, and I haven't been writing much Hikago fic lately either, so I'm not sure I'd be the right person for that. Good idea, though. I wonder if it would have any takers. I hope so.

[harumi.livejournal.com]

*wandered in here from hikago*

Oh god a person who understands Japanese history.

I'm one of those with a stickler for Japanese culture and history (as well as canon... Akira does NOT sleep on a bed ffs), but I have always hesitated to write about Sai. Not simply because of the daunting research, but because materials are so hard to find in English.

I've been working on a onmyoji!Hikago AU for quite some time and half the problem was research. Most of the links are shallow, and the materials that I want are very difficult to find. Part of the problem is not merely where but how. And that's on legends and magic, which can be bent and remade because it's not really based in fact. A writer's interpretation is forgivable under such circumstances.

History is another ball game altogether. I actually majored in Japanese history, but in the Tokugawa to modern era. Even in that I feel like my knowledge of the events are weak. I took a class on Japanese history from Heian on, but as you've pointed out, there's so much stuff. And many of the things need to be explained, even with research. Just the rankings, the names, and the roles are enough to make me feel dizzy. I honestly wished that there was a chart somewhere I could use.

At one point I tried looking for images of children's lifestyles in court during the Heian era on google and came up with little to none after spending hours on the computer. Even an image would have helped, but I couldn't find anything. And that shocked me. Until I did that I had always thought anything could be found on google.

Honestly, I'd really appreciate a knowledge post, or at least a link post, not simply because I'm interested, but because I do want to write it without making silly, stupid mistakes or inaccuracies. As you've pointed out, there's so much material, but it's also oh-so-intimidating.

[myaru.livejournal.com]

Have you tried The Princeton Companion to Classical Japanese Literature? So far I've only used it for charts on ranking and diagrams of the imperial palace and such because I forgot it was here until two minutes ago. I found a link with a wonderful chart on court rankings when I was researching my BG fic, and somehow lost it, of course...

I think focusing on a very specific time period - say, 1010-1015 - would help with finding the right information. Then you only have to memorize a short(er) list of relevant names and corresponding rankings, or you could just make them up. I've noticed they don't even bother naming the high officials in the few period pieces I've watched, because you can assume the Fujiwara are controlling the regency and high ministry, probably. Emperors seem to be treated the same way unless they're targeting an actual event. I personally want to use Fujiwara no Michinaga in my Sai fic, so I'm aiming for a specific period like that, and when you have names and years, it's a little easier to find material.

Of course, if it doesn't exist in English, even that won't help. I feel you there, because I'm having the same problem in my research for an original piece. I'm afraid I'll have to resort to Japanese, and that will be painful if it's even possible, as I'm not even close to fluent. I'm also not a history major, and envy you somewhat for being able to major in Japanese history. ;_; My school doesn't have room for that. The best we have is a minor.

As for the fic itself, do your best. You can always ask for history-specific critique. There must be communities dedicated to the era. I'm going to search for a few myself.

[splintercat.livejournal.com]

Coming from the hikarunogo comm and you'll have to excuse any mistakes I make - I'm exhausted. :) Also, yay, this icon is finally appropriate for something!

I'm so glad you made this post - if it inspires one person to write one fic about Sai's crazy Heian adventures, I will be so happy.

Like a lot of other commenters, though, I kind of doubt that the average writer will be willing to do the amount of research a historical fic requires. But, seriously, I'm not going to complain about a few historical inaccuracies if it looks like the author tried - if it seems like they checked out Wikipedia or google or even read a few chapters of The World of the Shining Prince or something.

Besides the research issue, another reason for lack of pre-Hikaru Sai fic is that it would literally just be about Sai. The writer would have no other canon character to write along with him and while that's fine for a short character study, I'm not sure that many authors are interested in writing plotty historical Sai fic that's heavily dependent on OCs. I'm not sure many readers would be interested in reading about Sai without Hikaru (or Akira/Ogata/Kouyo or a Sai from before he'd ever met those people) either.

Still, I think there could be good fic in here somewhere, especially one focusing on the time leading up to that fateful go match. Let's hope your post starts a trend!

[myaru.livejournal.com]

I love your icon SO MUCH~

That's exactly how I feel - if the author makes an effort, I'll be much more forgiving of mistakes and inaccuracies. The spirit of the era is what's important, in my opinion. Reading Genji would be a huge help with that. Or poetry, or legends, which are much shorter in general.

As for Sai... this is where I'm clearly biased. I'm surprised, with all the resurrection fic going around, that nobody has tried to reverse the trend and write a previous incarnation of Hikaru into Sai's history. You can have both. We're talking about a canon that centers around a boy and his go-playing ghost, so I mean, plenty of room there for playing.

I'd go for a short Sai-is-a-skank fic myself, but that's my bias talking.

I have a fic leading up to Sai's demise planned for eventual writing, but if somebody beats me to the punch, I wouldn't complain.

[fractured-sun.livejournal.com]

I linked in from hikarunogo. The funny thing is if there was one anime/manga fandom out there where people might put in that sort of effort it's this one. I lurk around the corners of several fandoms and of them all HnG seem to have the most... literary and dedicated writers, I am not saying that every HnG writer is (I'm sure there are lots of very bad HnG fics) but there does seem to be an unusual proportion of extremely well written and well researched fiction and people seem to take and give very detailed (and mostly useful) criticism. I think given the level of writing a lot of the more well known HnG writers seem to expect from themselves that they may be cautious about writing about something they cannot fully research.

Having said that it would be great if someone did, Sai is so much fun to read.

[hkfoot.livejournal.com]

I linked in from hikarunogo too. I do have to agree with your assessment of the HnG fandom, from what I've seen. After months of lurking, I ended up with a fairly high opinion of the Hikago fandom, which is why I ended up finally getting sucked in. XD

[myaru.livejournal.com]

I suppose part of my problem here is the assumption that fanfic writers in general don't put that much effort into their work anyway, and that research is something very few people even think about. That's very true in some fandoms; in Hikago fandom, I thought it was true when I was looking for fic, but it's also true there are people who are willing to try. I didn't give them enough credit.

Talking to people in the fandom has been enlightening. If I hadn't made the post at the comm, I would have kept thinking Hikago writers were unwilling to go the extra mile - an unfair assessment. So.

Well, I'll continue to write Sai because I love him as a character. I hope other people will also, and that other people will give him a try.

[hkfoot.livejournal.com]

Um...As author of the other Sai-centric fic in blind go, would you tell me what historical inaccuracies really stood out to you? I have taken Japanese history, but I'm certainly no expert on the Heian era, and I do want to be as accurate as I can.

And yeah, I know I'm one of the guilty proponents of a blushing virgin!Sai. I can see what you're saying on your side though. It was the norm for people at the Heian court to have all sorts of affairs, and I can see that being true for Sai as well. Blushing virgin!Sai would be an anomaly, but then, who's to say he wasn't an anomaly? While I can see him married and having affairs and such, I can also see him as being that singular oddity that's encased in his own go-obsessed bubble, removed from social norms. I'm very interested in your thoughts on this.

That aside, it would be wonderful if the fandom as a whole did more research and turned out more Sai stories. ^_^ And I really do love your writing and your depiction of Sai. Can I friend you?

[myaru.livejournal.com]

Sai's innocence is what glared at me, to be honest. It just doesn't seem likely. If that's the interpretation you want then there's not much to discuss, because then it comes down to personal preference. I can't give you any information on what age kids were generally exposed to this kind of thing, although I could point you to a few chapters in Genji that imply younger men were perfectly willing to spend nights with attractive/powerful superiors. (Really, that's just one instance I can think of, but.) I'm sure it varied according to family, ranking, and opportunity, but it seems they'd be aware, is all I'm saying.

As for my own reasoning, in short: at times, Sai displays a certain perception about others (the only example coming to me right now is when he observes that Akari really likes Hikaru, and it's not a very good one) that implies to me he wasn't completely wrapped up in his go. I don't think he could have been if he maintained a position in court. He would have had to have the political/social savvy to interact with high-ranking individuals, not the least of which would be the emperor and his retinue. Regardless of the historical accuracy of his position at court, canon puts him there, and so we have to work with it. He would have had to maintain political ties to individuals who could support his position. He probably got propositions occasionally (Look at him: ALL THE TIME-- okay, I'm fangirling now.)

On the other hand, many of Sai's shining moments of deep perception have to do with his own self-reflection, and usually also go, and go players, so you may have a point.

I was going to comment on your story, actually, after the big reveal, but this discussion is much bigger than I thought it would be when I made the post. I do want to say, though, that even though I disagree with your characterization of Sai - which is very much my opinion, and that doesn't mean anything if you don't want it to - I enjoyed your story, and I'm thrilled that someone else decided to write about him. I would have to read it again to point out all the things I liked about it, but the bottom line is that I love your story, and you for writing it.

So on that note, friend away, and I will reciprocate. &hearts

[it-mightbe-love.livejournal.com]

I had to comment because I found this through a random source, and because it isn't super old I feel I can adequately respond without coming off like a total moron.

I agree that Sai gets a lot of love peripherally in fandom. Sort of like, he's the cause of this and this and this, but he never did anything.

Which annoys me (and is also why I'm fixing that). I'm writing an epic ode to Sai. The research is killing my brain but I am doing it because dammit! There just isn't enough Sai-centric fic out there.

that is all.

(on the subject on ramen shops, every fic I've ever written featuring a ramen shop have all been base don the one ramen shop I visited when I was fourteen. but I have a folder on my desktop devoted to the itnricacies of them as well as pictures and things like that because I'm a crazy person.). <3